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Gamers: Ethics & Religion Discussion of ethics and religion and what place they have around the gaming table. The point of this forum is to give space to all the ethical stuff that is or is not relevant that gamers insist on talking about anyway. Also much discussion of real-world issues including religion and politics. THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR THE THIN-SKINNED! You have been warned.

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Old 12-03-2017, 07:56 PM
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Default GOP Tax Plan -- AKA Mitch McConnell is a Fiscal Progressive

There's a LOT to be said, but to start with something easy, we can see the understanding with which the Republicans view the common voter in this quote from Chuck Grassley (R-Sr. Senator Iowa):

Quote:
I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether itís on booze or women or movies.
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...tax/906946001/
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaelos View Post
There's a LOT to be said, but to start with something easy, we can see the understanding with which the Republicans view the common voter in this quote from Chuck Grassley (R-Sr. Senator Iowa):

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...tax/906946001/
It is doubtful there is any view of the common man involved. Rather there is a view that saving money is a virtue to be encouraged, not discouraged, and that death taxes are a form of double taxation. [While death taxes are normally paid by the rich, there is no reason in theory they are not paid by everyone who does not die broke. The prime reason they are not is the small return for the effort.] Using imaginary figures, a fellow makes $100,000 a year and pays $20,000 a year in taxes. Somehow managing to live on $10,000 a year, he dies 50 years later worth $3.5 mil, and leaves his money to Fifi's, which gave him weekly freebies. Alternately, he spends his money on getting the special at Fifi's, and dies with zero in the bank. Now, why should the government take a $million or two from the estate of our saver, but nothing from our spender? The government has the same need/greed for money in each case. Surely there is more justice in taking an extra $20,000 from each in their yearly tax bill. [Note there is no difference in income for our taxpayer. He gets the $100,000 either way.]
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:16 AM
silverwhisper silverwhisper is offline
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sentiments like grassley's do a marvelous job of sihfting the GOP's branding away from the party of old rich white dudes. truly.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:05 PM
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The "double taxation" rhetoric is inherently flawed, vis-a-vis the American tax system.

The IRS doesn't tax money or wealth. It taxes money or wealth changing hands.

We hear that phrase most often regarding Dividends being taxed, mainly because that's where the illusion is most visible: Shareholders can see the company's tax numbers in their quarterly or annual reports, and then they see their own taxes as well.

Still, whether it's a tax on earned income, dividends, interest, capital gains, inheritance tax, gift tax, or anything else, the money/wealth is only taxed when it changes ownership.

So unless that inheritance is changing hands more than once on the way through probate, there is no "double tax" involved.

Regarding David's example of saving money for a lifetime and leaving it to "Fifi's", or spending it throughout his life at that same "Fifi's", he's ignoring the fact that the owner(s) of Fifi's would have paid income tax on the money spent over the years.

And, considering the difference between Income Tax rates and Inheritance tax rates, they would probably have paid even more over the years than they would through the estate tax system.

Technical note: In practice, Fifi's wouldn't pay a dime of any money they received from an estate: The tax is applied prior to distribution, based on the entire value of the estate, rather than on the size of any particular endowment.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
The "double taxation" rhetoric is inherently flawed, vis-a-vis the American tax system.

The IRS doesn't tax money or wealth. It taxes money or wealth changing hands.
And why is that just? as opposed to for the convenience of the government?
John mows Jeff's lawn. Jeff takes out the trash for Sue. Sue does Sam's laundry, and Sam gives John's car a tune-up. Now, whether they exchange $1 or $100 or nothing, the effects on society are the same. So why should 1 be tax free, and another taxed heavily? Other than that is less work for more tax revenue for the government?
Nor is the wealth changing hands standard at all consistently followed. Any gift is wealth changing hands, but it is not taxed, unless the amount is large and the government can expect a good pile of loot.

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Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
We hear that phrase most often regarding Dividends being taxed, mainly because that's where the illusion is most visible: Shareholders can see the company's tax numbers in their quarterly or annual reports, and then they see their own taxes as well.
But it is double taxation. If I give Joe $1000 to invest for me, or play the ponies, Joe has control of the money, but it is still my money and clearly double taxation if Joe pays taxes on it as well as me. If Sam also kicks in $1000 and/or Joe hires Bob to help him do the "investing", it is no real difference from my directly doing the "investing". And a corporation is the same thing on a large scale.
For the people who don't like big corporations, we can add that this double taxation makes corporations larger. [If the corporation went untaxed, and the owners had to pay instead, there would be more call for larger dividends, which would come out of the corporation assets.]

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Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
So unless that inheritance is changing hands more than once on the way through probate, there is no "double tax" involved.
While "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations" is the most common pattern, there are plenty of inheritances that pass thru several generations, and get taxed each time, except they usually have expensive lawyers that can find the loopholes.

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Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Regarding David's example of saving money for a lifetime and leaving it to "Fifi's", or spending it throughout his life at that same "Fifi's", he's ignoring the fact that the owner(s) of Fifi's would have paid income tax on the money spent over the years.

And, considering the difference between Income Tax rates and Inheritance tax rates, they would probably have paid even more over the years than they would through the estate tax system.
Open to question. As noted, the rich also get the good tax lawyers, and one way or another can end up paying the same or less taxes than the poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Technical note: In practice, Fifi's wouldn't pay a dime of any money they received from an estate: The tax is applied prior to distribution, based on the entire value of the estate, rather than on the size of any particular endowment.
In Theory, Fifi's wouldn't pay. In practice, if we say Uncle Sam grabs $1 mil, Fifi's ends up with $2.5 mil instead of $3.5 no matter who we said paid.
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:14 PM
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You're asking me why the income tax is a tax on income, and not on wealth? David, I'm flattered that you think I can get you to understand the obvious. It's a high bar to clear, but I'll give it a try.

Er... on second thought, no I won't. You aren't worth the effort.
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:22 PM
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Anyone surprised neither Windbag nor DA understand taxation?

Anyone?

No?
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:21 PM
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Actually, I understand it just fine.

Income tax, estate taxes etc are taxes taken when you/we get money. That is, when it changes ownership.

They don't tax you on your bank account, your stock portfolio or your real estate holdings. (note that property taxes aren't "income tax".)

They tax you on interest earned in that bank account, they tax you on dividends received from your stock portfolio, and they tax you on rental income from your real estate holdings.

They tax you when you sell that stock, and they tax you when you sell the real estate, but while you hold them they can appreciate in value without limit, and you don't get taxed on that appreciation.

In DA's bad example, he suggests that his stock broker gets taxed when he "gives" said broker money to invest. Flatly wrong. The broker pays tax on the fees earned for handling the investments, but not for the money you entrust to their care.

So what part of that do I have wrong?
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
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So what part of that do I have wrong?
The collective typing stamina of this forum is insufficient to answer that question.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:48 PM
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In other words, you got nothing.

Thought so.
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"Tell you what. You, me, dark alley. You bring the pen."
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