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Gamers: Ethics & Religion Discussion of ethics and religion and what place they have around the gaming table. The point of this forum is to give space to all the ethical stuff that is or is not relevant that gamers insist on talking about anyway. Also much discussion of real-world issues including religion and politics. THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR THE THIN-SKINNED! You have been warned.

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  #81  
Old 12-25-2017, 04:04 PM
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David, I said you were factually wrong, not because it was tuesday, but because you were.

But because it's Christmas, I'll use simple words.

If it earns an income, it pays income tax. If it doesn't earn income, it doesn't pay income tax.

You with me so far?

You say that all Corporations pass all profits on to the owners. Another factually wrong statement.

Some profits are reinvested. Some are given as bonuses to corporate officers. Some are held in bank accounts, as a pad against the potential of business losses.

Consider companies like Sears Roebuck and Company, a corporation that's been losing money for years. Are they demanding cash infusions from the stock holders? No.

Why not? Because they have retained profits from past years, some as investments they can liquidate, some as straight cash reserves. Profits that didn't get paid out as dividends.

Yeah, I know, words like "Corporation" and "Dividends" aren't small words, but you might be ready.

So why don't you give yourself a holiday gift, and stop. You're wrong, accept it.
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  #82  
Old 12-25-2017, 11:42 PM
David Argall David Argall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
If it earns an income, it pays income tax. If it doesn't earn income, it doesn't pay income tax.
Which would mean that corporation/deceased OR the stockholder/heir would pay, not both. We are talking about the same block of money in both cases. It is not earned by both parties. In the corporation/stockholder cases, either might pay, according to how the corporation is set up. In the deceased/heir case, the deceased has already paid the taxes, and the heir, who has usually had nothing to do with earning it, should not have to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
You say that all Corporations pass all profits on to the owners. Another factually wrong statement.
a-When you say factually wrong, you need to say why.
b-As stated before, the corporation does pass on all of its profit to its owners. There is just not a normal date when that must be done by. But eventually, when the business is closed down, all money, original investments, profits, whatever [less losses and taxes etc of course] is returned to stockholders. Where did you think it went?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Some profits are reinvested.
[And is going to investors some time later]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Some are given as bonuses to corporate officers.
[which makes it an expense, not a profit.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Some are held in bank accounts, as a pad against the potential of business losses.
[which is also going to the investor at a latter date if the losses don't happen.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Consider companies like Sears Roebuck and Company, a corporation that's been losing money for years. Are they demanding cash infusions from the stock holders? No.
Why not? Because they have retained profits from past years, some as investments they can liquidate, some as straight cash reserves. Profits that didn't get paid out as dividends.
Because the "profits" were not real. They were just paper profits, what the profits were expected to be if the business were ended right then. All the money still goes to the stockholders even if now it is a smaller amount.
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  #83  
Old 12-26-2017, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
Which would mean that corporation/deceased OR the stockholder/heir would pay, not both. We are talking about the same block of money in both cases. It is not earned by both parties. In the corporation/stockholder cases, either might pay, according to how the corporation is set up. In the deceased/heir case, the deceased has already paid the taxes, and the heir, who has usually had nothing to do with earning it, should not have to pay.
It isn't the money that pays, it's the corporation and/or person that gains the money.

So the corporation or the deceased earns the money, and pays income taxes. Then the dividends are paid, or the heir inherits. In either case, money changes hands, and is taxed. In one case it's taxes as dividends, in the other it's an estate tax. But since the corporation isn't the shareholder (as explained about a dozen times now), each pays separate taxes on their separate gains. By the same token, since the deceased isn't the heir, each pays separate taxes on their separate monetary gains.

Quote:
a-When you say factually wrong, you need to say why.
b-As stated before, the corporation does pass on all of its profit to its owners. There is just not a normal date when that must be done by. But eventually, when the business is closed down, all money, original investments, profits, whatever [less losses and taxes etc of course] is returned to stockholders. Where did you think it went?
A: I don't need to say why. But I did in fact do so. You aren't the corporation. The corporation's assets aren't your direct personal property, and if you treat them like they are then you'll eventually get caught and possibly go to jail. You like to hand wave that, but it's real.

B: Wrong. Sometimes last years profits are lost again in a bad year. See the Sears examples. Sometimes past profits are eaten by corporate fines (see Volkswagon, which just had to pay a huge fine for their mileage and emissions misrepresentation.). Sometimes investments don't pay off. Profits are lost in a thousand ways, not all of which are deductible. They aren't "expenses" they're just business losses.

So as usual, you are wrong. And, as usual, you'll deny it.

Quote:
Because the "profits" were not real. They were just paper profits, what the profits were expected to be if the business were ended right then. All the money still goes to the stockholders even if now it is a smaller amount.
Well, if you count green paper with pictures of dead presidents as "paper profits", you'd be right.

Or are you adding to your collection of argumentative fallacies? You've invoked the populist fallacy ("Lots of people thinks so, so it must be true" ), you've begged the question, you've used false analogies. Are you going for the redefinist fallacy next? Defining "real" profits as only those that get sent to investors?

Profits, as measured by the tax man, have dollar signs attached. Last year's profits might be lost in some bad year in the future, but they were real when they happened.
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  #84  
Old 12-26-2017, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
The orignial quote here was...
DCA: This is because C-corps are limited to small numbers of owners, 35 according to one source I read.
and the response...
A: Everything you just said was wrong.
And not everything I had just said was wrong since C-corps are limited to small numbers of owners.
/whispers

C and S aren't the same letter
35 and 100 aren't the same number.

/endwhisper
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  #85  
Old 12-27-2017, 03:11 AM
David Argall David Argall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
So the corporation or the deceased earns the money, and pays income taxes. Then the dividends are paid, or the heir inherits. In either case, money changes hands, and is taxed. In one case it's taxes as dividends, in the other it's an estate tax. But since the corporation isn't the shareholder (as explained about a dozen times now), each pays separate taxes on their separate gains. By the same token, since the deceased isn't the heir, each pays separate taxes on their separate monetary gains.
You continue to say the government is owed the money because it says it is owed the money. There is no claim of social benefit, just statements that the government is following the rules it set up. That may be superior to having the government grabbing money at random, but it does not even make a claim that the rules are good rules, much less deny there are better.
Let us put 5 men in a circle and each passes a $20 to the man on the left. Now the government says "You each have gained $20, and thus owe $4 taxes each, so I will take the $20." Absurd? Of course, but how is it different from our corporate/inheritance case? The corporation/deceased gives money to another. Money has changed hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
A: You aren't the corporation. The corporation's assets aren't your direct personal property, and if you treat them like they are then you'll eventually get caught and possibly go to jail. You like to hand wave that, but it's real.
And once again, this is what the government says. We are talking about what the government should say. We have already identified plenty of cases where the government has lied or been wrong, so its mere opinion on the subject is not enough. Why do we end up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
B: Wrong. Sometimes last years profits are lost again in a bad year. See the Sears examples. Sometimes past profits are eaten by corporate fines (see Volkswagon, which just had to pay a huge fine for their mileage and emissions misrepresentation.). Sometimes investments don't pay off. Profits are lost in a thousand ways, not all of which are deductible. They aren't "expenses" they're just business losses.
And business losses or expenses are reductions of profits, which can be spread over several years. Last year's profit may be swallowed by this year's loss, and the taxes due for last year are reduced by how much the profit is reduced in future years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhaven View Post
Or are you adding to your collection of argumentative fallacies? You've invoked the populist fallacy ("Lots of people thinks so, so it must be true" ), you've begged the question, you've used false analogies. Are you going for the redefinist fallacy next? Defining "real" profits as only those that get sent to investors?
As with other points, the mere naming of something does not mean it applies. One must still explain things. The populist fallacy means we can't settle things by a vote, but there is still a need to explain why all these other folk are wrong while none will support the other side. Begged question? false analogies? both must be identified, and shown why they are wrong, not just claimed. Redefinist fallacy-defining "real" profits as only those that get sent to investors- is central to your argument, as that is the definition of dividends, and without it, your explanation becomes incoherent.
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  #86  
Old 12-27-2017, 02:32 PM
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Tired of trying to explain the obvious to you, david.

Bye
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The Paladin and the Assassin perform the same function. The only difference is, one of them blames god for it.

As a permit holder, one of your goals should be to never have a law named after you

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  #87  
Old 12-30-2017, 07:48 AM
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*referees whistle blows*

Windhaven taps out after 17 days.

Typing stamina win to David Argall.
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  #88  
Old 12-30-2017, 03:07 PM
David Argall David Argall is offline
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*referees whistle blows*

Windhaven taps out after 17 days.

Typing stamina win to David Argall.
Takes victory lap.

Double taxing is both real and common. It happens not because of any government need or expense or any other legitimate purpose, but because the money is visible at this time and the new owner has a weak grip on it. [He has been too busy getting it to think of how to keep government and other thieves from taking it.]
That the taxation is real is easily seen since we have looked at cases where the tax bill varies widely because of how the paperwork is done. This of itself is a flaw for society. The paperwork is not free and so this system places a burden on us. Society is also hurt by the complexity of the system. When you combine income tax with corporate tax and taxes on dividends, who really knows if we have the right level of taxation? We also have major problems of corruption. "Persuading" a legislator that your group deserves a special break is much easier when he doesn't really understand the system anyway.
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